The Story of Cap and Trade

GM Rice

Sepp Holzer

Architecture - Symbiosis

Good architects study the place of man in nature.

Here are a few quotes by Frank Lloyd Wright :

Study nature, love nature, stay close to nature. It will never fail you.

So here I stand before you preaching organic architecture: declaring organic architecture to be the modern ideal. (1939)

No house should ever be on a hill or on anything. It should be of the hill. Belonging to it. Hill and house should live together each the happier for the other.

All fine architectural values are human values, else not valuable.

Prison

"a human being . . . experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separate from the rest--a kind of optical delusion of consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening the circle of understanding and compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty"

-Albert Einstein

Denial

The best-adjusted person in our society is the person who is not dead and not alive, just numb, a zombie. When you are dead you’re not able to do the work of society. When you are fully alive you are constantly saying "No" to many of the processes of society, the racism, the sexism, the polluted environment, the nuclear threat, the arms race, drinking unsafe water and eating carcinogenic foods. Thus it is in the interests of our society to promote those things that take the edge off, keep us busy with our fixes, and keep us slightly number out and zombie-like. In this way our modern consumer society itself functions as an addict.

-A.W. Schaef - When Society Becomes an Addict

ID Please!

Taxonomy - the orderly classification of plants and animals.

Yesterday, I attended a conference given by a pastor/botanist. When asked "what could be done for the general public - and especially the youth - to be more responsible about protecting biodiversity?" he replied the following :

"I would tell them to associate taxonomy and observation of nature. People must learn to identify and recognize what is out there. Identifying plants, birds. If a name cannot be given to an object, no relationship can establish itself between the observer and the observed. To identify a plant makes a big difference. If a person walks past a stranger, he will not respond the same way as if he walks past a person that has been introduced and whose name is known. There is an emotional response that stems from recognizing the person."

Identification and naming can have a powerful effect. It might be the royal road to a stronger sense of connection with nature. Memory and the intellect could be the first step to being more fully cognizant, i.e. emotionally and spiritually.

Life - Lessons from Biodiversity

Diversity and an "intelligent, organized" chaos encourage life.
A rich ecosystem is full of symbiotic relationships between species. There is self-regulation and coevolution.

Uniformity, squareness weaken and destroy life.
A poor ecosystem promotes parasitic relationships between species. The system is out of balance and self-destroys in an attempt to steady itself.


Diversity and an "intelligent, organized" chaos in diet encourage health.
Diversity and an "intelligent, organized" chaos in physical activity encourage health.
Diversity and an "intelligent, organized" chaos in the one's activities and interests encourage mental health.

Uniformity in diet, physical, interests, daily activities destroy health and life.

Similarly, diversity and an "intelligent, organized" chaos in communities, societies, nations encourage harmony. There is self-regulation and "coevolution".

Uniformity, too much regulation, too much systematic organization, weaken and destroy communities, societies, nations, the environment. There are parasitic relationships. There is gradual destruction - including the environment's - in an attempt by Gaia to steady itself.

Short & Educational - The Problems with Consumerism in a Nutshell

Our enormously productive economy... demands that we make consumption our way of life, that we convert the buying and use of goods into rituals, that we seek our spiritual satisfaction, our ego satisfaction, in consumption... we need things consumed, burned up, replaced and discarded at an ever-accelerating rate - Victor Lebow (1955)

Wendell Berry - Eating is an Agricultural Act

A Canadian WWOOFer introduced me to Wendell Berry. I cannot wait to read his books.

Every once in a while we find people who become spiritual companions and guides, kindred souls who share similar intuitions and thoughts. These people can dispel the ominious sense of isolation arising from the frustration of not sharing the same views as peers or mainstream culture. Thoreau, Spinoza, Epicurus, Patanjali, Masanobu Fukuoka, Michael Pollan, Michel Onfray are a few in my Pantheon. They will certainly have to make a little room for Wendell Berry very soon.

"His nonfiction serves as an extended conversation about the life he values. According to Berry, the good life includes sustainable agriculture, appropriate technologies, healthy rural communities, connection to place, the pleasures of good food, husbandry, good work, local economics, the miracle of life, fidelity, frugality, reverence, and the interconnectedness of life. The threats Berry finds to this good life include: industrial farming and the industrialization of life, ignorance, hubris, greed, violence against others and against the natural world, the eroding topsoil in the United States, global economics, and environmental destruction. As a prominent defender of agrarian values, Berry's appreciation for traditional farming techniques, such as those of the Amish, grew in the 1970s, due in part to exchanges with Draft Horse Journal publisher Maurice Telleen. Berry has long been friendly to and supportive of Wes Jackson, believing that Jackson's agricultural research at The Land Institute lives out the promise of "solving for pattern" and using "nature as model."

The concept of "Solving for pattern", coined by Berry in his essay of the same title, is the process of finding solutions that solve multiple problems, while minimizing the creation of new problems. The essay was originally published in the Rodale Press periodical The New Farm. Though Mr. Berry's use of the phrase was in direct reference to agriculture, it has since come to enjoy broader use throughout the design community."

The teachers are everywhere. What is wanted is a learner.

Eating is an agricultural act.

The most alarming sign of the state of our society now is that our leaders have the courage to sacrifice the lives of young people in war, but have not the courage to tell us that we must be less greedy and less wasteful.

Reductionism (ultimately, the empirical explanability of everything and a cornerstone of science), has uses that are appropriate, and it also can be used inappropriately. It is appropriately used as a way (one way) of understanding what is empirically known or empirically knowable. When it becomes merely an intellectual "position" confronting what is not empirically known or knowable, then it becomes very quickly absurd, and also grossly desensitizing and false.

We Americans are not usually thought to be a submissive people, but of course we are. Why else would we allow our country to be destroyed? Why else would we be rewarding its destroyers? Why else would we all— by proxies we have given to greedy corporations and corrupt politicians— be participating in its destruction? Most of us are still too sane to piss in our own cistern, but we allow others to do so and we reward them for it. We reward them so well, in fact, that those who piss in our cistern are wealthier than the rest of us.

We need to confront honestly the issue of scale. Bigness has a charm and a drama that are seductive, especially to politicians and financiers; but bigness promotes greed, indifference, and damage, and often bigness is not necessary. You may need a large corporation to run an airline or to manufacture cars, but you don't need a large corporation to raise a chicken or a hog. You don't need a large corporation to process local food or local timber and market it locally.

Laugh.
Laughter is immeasurable. Be joyful
though you have considered all the facts.

What I stand for
is what I stand on.

Whether we and our politicians know it or not, Nature is party to all our deals and decisions, and she has more votes, a longer memory, and a sterner sense of justice than we do.

Be Epicureans!

If a man can find a life purpose, if he can be driven by faith or by vision, may he follow his calling as long as his faith or vision respects all life and individual freedom. However, may he never succumb to dogmaticism or ideology.

For the other man, figuring out what provides pleasure without bringing harm to himself, others or nature, can still create a sense fulfillment or at least contentment.

--

The majority of men lead lives of quiet desparation filled with illusions of pleasure - pleasures which bring about harm to their bodies and later to their minds, which create suffering for themselves and in others. To all those : do not surrender, be Epicureans!

Find pleasure.
Find pleasure in the natural rather than in the always artificial.
Find pleasure in moderation rather than in constant excess.
Find pleasure in the present rather than in thinking only about past or future.
Find pleasure in seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, rather than only in possessing.
Find pleasure in sharing rather than only in hoarding.

If you accept your bodies first, you will accept yourselves.
If you accept yourselves, you will accept others.
If you accept others, you will be concerned about mankind.
If you are concerned about mankind, you will respect nature.

Healthy on a Small Planet

Is there a simple way to evaluate the quality of food in terms of health and sustainability?

In the UK, a traffic light food labeling system was introduced in certain supermarkets to indicate whether levels of fat, saturated fat, sugar and salt where safe, moderately high or very high.

While the label is helpful to those aware of their specific health risks - diabetes, cholesterol and high blood pressure - it fails to give the average consumer an indication of how much "quality" a product has.

The obvious pitfall is to disqualify food on the basis of a nutritional configuration. This type of selection belongs to the realm of marketing, the food and pharmacological industries. Buying food intelligently is not to follow the industry's "health” claims. No natural food is inherently unhealthy.

All natural foods are healthy as long as they are balancing to the eater's constitution, that they are eaten at an appropriate time and season, that they are combined properly, that they are made digestible (with cooking or spices for example), that they are eaten in proper quantity. As a consequence, no "natural" organic food, should be considered unhealthy and attributed a red light. Organic butter might receive a red light in the aforementioned labeling system for its saturated fat content, while it is almost universally life-giving to those eating it in the proper conditions.

Below is an alternative labeling system (open to modifications) which indicates definite risk for health, for the environment or for unfair population exploitation.


Green Light

The Bottom Line:
Healthy. Respectful of the environment. Respectful of workers. Efficient in space and energy. Sustainable.

All foods in this group must be:

• Organic*
• Local
• In Season
• Fair for workers along the entire chain of production and distribution.
• 100% Natural. Without any additives or synthetic chemicals.

List:

• Vegetables
• Fruit
• Whole grains and cereal
• Beans
• Nuts and Seeds
• Oils
• Spices and Herbs
• Beverages
• Unrefined sweeteners
• Eggs
• Dairy**
• Sea Vegetables**
• Honey, propolis, royal jelly, pollen**

Have fresh.
Take into account individual needs (pregnant, diabetes...).
Always include in a varied, balanced diet.

*Organic as in replenishes the soil, respects natural cycles, without chemicals, respectful of the welfare and health of animals, 100% natural, not from large monoculture fields.

**Can have a bad ecological impact, but not as much as “yellow light” or “red light” foods.




Yellow Light

The Bottom Line:
Healthy but either:

• Taxing in resources of space or energy.
• Damaging to the environment or species in excess.
• Addictive.
• Excessively stimulating or dulling.
• Unhealthy when not eaten only occasionally.

All foods in this group must be

• Organic*
• Fair for workers along the entire chain of production and distribution.
• 100% Natural. Without any additives or synthetic chemicals.

List:

• Meat
• Fish
• Poultry
• Coffee, guarana, ...
• Alcohol
• Sweets and candy
• Refined flour, cereal and sweeteners
• All “Green light” foods that are not produced and distributed locally

Red Light

The Bottom Line:
Avoid altogether. Unhealthy, damaging to the environment, damaging to workers, encourages an unethical economy.

• Food grown with chemical pesticides and herbicides
• Genetically engineered food
• Animals fed with food that belongs to this red light list or unsuited for their needs
• Animals not raised in proper conditions for welfare and health
• Fish from polluted water or from intensive fish farms.
• Plants from large monoculture fields
• Endangered species of animals or plants
• Food produced, transformed or distributed in a way that does not respect workers
• Food produced, transformed or distributed in a way that prevents the economic emancipation of poorer countries
  
• Food processed with chemical additives
• Processed oil
• Excessively salty, sweet or fat processed food

Diversity

"Alors que près de 7 000 espèces végétales ont été cultivées depuis le début de l'humanité, 15 variétés de plantes et 8 variétés animales seulement fournissent aujourd’hui 90% des ressources alimentaires de la planète. Cette uniformisation pose le problème de la perte des saveurs et de l’appauvrissement culturel, mais également celui de notre dépendance à quelques variétés alimentaires lorsque celles-ci se trouvent menacées par un agent pathogène, un insecte ravageur ou un aléa climatique.

Variez donc autant que possible votre alimentation et vos achats : ce conseil nutritionnel classique est aussi une bonne façon de soutenir la diversité biologique, qui n’a rien à voir la diversité croissante des produits dans les supermarchés, où les produits soi-disants « nouveaux » sont souvent faits avec les mêmes matières premières – du maïs, du blé, du riz et des pommes de terre."

-MesCoursesPourLaPlanete

MY House! Um, well...ok, YOUR house anyway.

The Bicycling Horticulturalist

To all skeptics! Horticulture without a driver's license is possible!

"Ryan Nassichuk builds food gardens for people. His bicycle and trailer are the sole transport for himself, tools, and materials - including soil and plants! This horticulturist also builds container gardens and composters. Tour a backyard garden in which a 6-week class of students filled raised beds with soil, compost and fertilizer, did succession planting, and built a low-cost composter. Recently Ryan has added free seed-sharing to his wisdom-sharing, while continuing to propagate food gardens throughout Vancouver. This man has a low ecological footprint — or should we say bike tire tread? [www.ryansgarden.com]"
-Peak Moment TV

Just sayin'...

Wwoof wwoof!

Dunno if Dan already told me about this or not...here it is anyway ---> organic farming meets couchsurfing :)

http://www.wwoof.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWOOF

super cool! I saw a brief segment about it on arte or france televisions (not sure) and I thought it looked pretty cool, especially 'cause you walk away with whatever knowledge the farmer imparted; in the case they showed the guy explained les vignes et puis s'en est suivi bien evidemment une seance de degustation :)

definitely something to be looked into! :)

oh, and dan what was that herbie hancock song i listened to at your place? chameleon?

(gonna have to edit this thing at some point, but i'm putting it up as is for now :)

Discover Herbie Hancock!

Dare to be Naïve! Discovering Buckminster Fuller

I must confess that until today, I knew almost nothing about Buckminster Fuller.

I briefly read about him months ago while trying to figure out what Unitarian theology was about. I learned that he was some sort of genial modern polymath - à la Benjamin Franklin - who could, to those familiar with Jungian typology, easily epitomize the "extraverted intuition + introverted thinking" type. I imagined him as a man who needed to understand everything with a rational approach while being guided by an internal compass pointing to a certain universalism. He was an American architect, author, designer, futurist, inventor, philosopher and visionary. [*] The rest, I discovered today thanks to my lunch meal.

I had to prepare my meal early this morning before going to work since I do not have the opportunity to leave for lunch. Going through an Ayurvedic cooking phase, I've been experimenting with Indian recipes which inevitably include clarified butter: ghee. I have been amazed preparation after preparation by the richness in taste and texture it provides and the way it releases the aroma of spices. Today's meal included ghee and quickly after eating, I felt that the ghee itself was somehow responsible for an unusual sense of calm across my body. Curious to learn about the presumed benefits of the elixir, I searched for information online and stumbled upon an article written by a fellow called Peter Malakoff. After finishing the article - and being converted to the use of ghee forever :) - the author intrigued me, and so wanting to learn more about him, I visited his website where I read his biography.

It turns out this man's life is nothing short of incredible! For the sake of comparison, I would say it is what Into the Wild's Chris McCandless's life could have been had he lived earlier, but just a little crazier. To return to the subject of this post, Peter Malakoff after writing a paper was granted a scholarship to spend a month with Buckminster Fuller. This is how the meal lead to learning about the man!

"That night Bucky spoke of the world of sailing and the world as seen by a man at sea. Indeed, much of Fullers terminology, the very words he used and the principles they represented, came from the nautical world. Think of the famous term he coined- 'Spaceship Earth'. He likened the world to a ship, which, he pointed out, is a closed and limited environment, not an unlimited one and always in motion. He pointed out how important it was to grasp and understand this.

He told us of many years ago he had spoken to a group of architects in New York City and had asked the assembled group if any of them knew how much the huge, many storied building they were sitting in weighed. None of them had any idea. Fuller found this to be a major oversight and a serious fault on their part. How could they maximize the potential that could come from building materials and structures if they were not thinking 'ecologically', if they did not know what the building weighed? How could they build something in accord with the operating principles of life, of spaceship earth?

Fuller, who had captained many a boat, said that 'On a ship, one always had to know how much weight was to be carried. It was important to know this if the ship was to be able to perform well on the water. It was this 'closed' or limited environment, similar to the nature of the world as a ship, that gave rise to the very concept of ecology. The very word 'ecos' comes from the Greek word for house or home. Ecology', he said, 'begins with the recognition of the closed or limited environment of the world. It is born of the realization that you cannot just dump your trash or waste into a river or an ocean and that it will just be washed away. We are on a ship, a spaceship and absolutely everything is and needs to be recycled, we need to know how much things 'weigh' and how they 'work'.

He spoke about 'cybernetics' which Bucky defined as the 'science of self-regulating mechanisms'. (Think of Arnold Schwarzenegger as the 'cyborg' or the self regulating organism. Think of 'cyberspace' as self regulating space). Bucky said that the word, cybernos, comes from the Greek word for the 'helmsman' of a boat. Bucky then made a startling statement, "A drunk cybernos makes less mistakes than a sober cybernos". I asked him how that could be . . . I didn't want to be in a boat or a car driven or steered by a drunk. He shook his head in agreement. I felt completely lost. Then he made his point, "Unless you make a mistake, you do not correct your course. Because a drunk does not make so many mistakes, he does less correction of his course and so his course is mistaken, he weaves his way down the road, or he hits something with deadly results. A sober man is constantly correcting his many little mistakes before they get big and his course is thereby true"

He spoke of 'synergetics', what Fuller called the behavior of a whole system not predicated on the behavior of its parts. He told us of chrome-nickel steel and how its strength is over 50% greater than the sum of the strength of its component metals. He spoke of gravity and how there was nothing in all the stuff of the universe that would predict it would be mutually attracted to another thing.

He spoke of the principle of 'precession'. Bucky told us how precession is the relationship that occurs between objects that are in motion. 'Imagine a top', he said. 'When it is set spinning, if you push it, it will go at right angles to the direction of your push. This is the same as the earth spinning around the sun. The suns greater gravitational attraction would pull the earth directly into itself, but since the earth is spinning it goes in a great elliptical circle around the sun'. Fuller said that the principle of precession is how life 'works'- A honeybee goes to a flower in pursuit of honey. The bee only wants the honey, but at right angles to the intention or drive of the bee, flowers are pollinated. The honeybee is not concerned with pollinating flowers. Bucky proposed that 'life happens at right angles or in a precessional manner to the 180degree straight ahead intentions of the bee'. He went on to say that it was exactly the same with a human seeking money or sex or pleasure or power. Life is happening at right angles to our desires. By recognition of this, he said, we can begin to design our lives to take into account precession and thus work with the nature of nature.

Finally, I remember that Bucky spoke of the word 'trimtab', what it was and what it represented. Fuller told us of how a large boat like the Queen Mary has a very large, many tonned rudder at the the very back of the ship. At the back end of that very large rudder is a very small rudder. When the captain wants to turn the huge main rudder in one direction, he turns the small rudder in the opposite direction. This creates a difference of water pressure or lower pressure vacuum on one side of the large rudder and the main rudder can now be moved with almost no effort; It is literally 'drawn' in that direction. Bucky said this represented the power of the individual to change the direction of the 'ship of state', doing what government and corporations cannot, by applying design science, by doing the 'right' intelligent action. Further, he pointed out how the action of the trimtab is applied when the bulk of the ship has passed, when it seems to have gone past the point of any change. Fuller died in 1983 and the epitaph carved on his tombstone says: "Call me Trimtab""

Concepts like these are precisely what drew me to physics - a chance to increase the focus of my metaphysical observation lens. Knowledge of natural phenomena should give general epistemic tools by the improvement of intuition. Ideas like precession and the trimtab are very poetic and reveal the richness scientific knowledge can bring to philosophy. Many of his ideas may not be new today, but were visionary then.

Hypocrisy Now!

http://tennesseepolicy.org/main/article.php?article_id=764

Ok, so the numbers are a little manipulated here, but it works out to 19.3 times the energy consumption of an "average" American home. Of course, one would need to know what homes this "average" is based on (size and location) as well as that of Al Gore. But this doesn't change the fact that he is a total hypocrite.

Diesel Love Vs. Love Electric

Diesel Love

As you are probably well aware of now, I've been obsessing over Diesel engines recently since they are, in my personal opinion (and facts will back me up on this), the best small combustion engines you can have (efficient, powerful, reliable). To give you a little taste of diesels, here's a little comparison of Diesels with Gas powered engines* (sources vary the numbers):

	Gas	Diesel
Energy Efficiency rating	20%-30%	25%-45%
Energy Density of the Fuel	150k BTU/Gal	166k BTU/Gal
AVG DIST on Engine Lifetime	200k miles	350k miles
AVG Cost of 98 E320 Mercedes	$8k	$18k

*150k BTU/GAL for biodiesel and 100k BTU/GAL for ethanol (these are Imperial Gallons). Averages based on experience and personal research (the rest you can find anywhere online).

There is only a single disadvantage to diesels, and that's the Horsepower (the torque is far superior to gasoline engines though). This renders diesel engines poor for sports use (max speed is lower than for gasoline engines).

In short, the engine is amazing.

But wait, there's more. Diesels can run on biodiesel (here's info on why this the best thing since sliced bread - which I make). If you don't feel like reading that page, here's the gist of it: it reduces emissions, it is more efficient, it is easy to make and it can be made from algae (which thrives on CO2 and NO gases - filtering them).

'nough said.


Love Electric

Well, electric engines, are completely different from combustion engines; they are quiet, have a very high range of RPMs, can be easily repaired, have absolutely zero emissions and have a nearly flat torque and power curve (great for racing). The only issue is that the technology has not quite reached the level necessary to market it on a global scale and it requires the evolution of other technologies that have not yet been invented (fusion) in order to make it truly ecological and worthy of our use.

Hydrogen powered, fuel cell vehicles are conceptually great because they have all the benefits of electric engines but don't leach off the power grid directly enabling companies to manage their energy production more efficiently and give us the potential to evolve the technology. However, hydrogen storage is ridiculously expensive and very inefficient (tank takes up the space of an entire car trunk). This will take some time to be marketable.


Well, what I was getting to here, was that currently, we need to switch to biodiesel, 10 years from now, to electricity and then, finally to fuel cells thus allowing the petroleum companies to die slowly or adapt electricity as their main energy production (dropping crude oil).

So, hold on, I'm-a-coming - I'm jumping on the biodiesel wagon.

Stoicism, Lucretius and the Collapse of Societies

Nothing can be created from nothing

Christianity had a predecessor as the major system of thought in Europe. Stoicism had very little in common with the religion which effectively separated man from nature to make him God's child. Justinian understood that a stoicist world view was too pagan in essence to allow it to coexist with the new-found dogma and the unifying political potential it presented.

"Everything is right for me, which is right for you, O Universe. Nothing for me is too early or too late, which comes in due time for you. Everything is fruit to me which your seasons bring, O Nature. From you are all things, in you are all things, to you all things return." -Marcus Aurelius

However, Stoicism and its values such as Virtue were the dominant philosophy which shaped the livelihood of leaders and citizens in late Hellenism and then in the Roman Empire.

Its meditative approach to life and the central concept of ataraxia - absence of turmoil through detachment - is reminiscent of equanimity and reveals rooting or at least similarity with Buddhism and other Eastern philosophies.

"Freedom is secured not by the fulfilling of one's desires, but by the removal of desire." -Epictetus

What sets it apart from Paganism and Eastern thought is its obvious place in the lineage of other Greek schools which hold pure logos - rationality, thought, scientific dialectics - as the compass and arbiter of all decisions, behaviors and judgments.

"The vivid force of his mind prevailed, and he fared forth far beyond the flaming ramparts of the heavens and traversed the boundless universe in thought and mind." -Lucretius

Lucretius - the soberly lyrical observer, reminds me of Lao Tzu in his capacity to see what is timeless. Ovid, in his Amores, writes: "Carmina sublimis tunc sunt peritura Lucreti / exitio terras cum dabit una dies" (which means the verses of the sublime Lucretius will perish only when a day will bring the end of the world). Everything experiences the inevitable dance of the cosmos: gestation, birth, growth, maturity, decline, illness, death. Not only is life caught up in the cycle but also societies, systems, ideologies, objects. All that remains is the stage - the universe - a patient spectator.

"Thus the sum of things is ever being renewed, and mortals live dependent one upon another. Some nations increase, others diminish, and in a short space the generations of living creatures are changed and like runners pass on the torch of life." -Lucretius

Lucretius probably never doubted the Roman Empire would overextend itself and that its power would dwindle and that it would eventually be replaced.

Societies and economical systems collapse. It is inevitable.

In the video below, a parallel is drawn between our global oil-based economy and the fall of the Western Roman Empire.
"According to Professor Guy Prouty, every civilization rises, evolves, and then collapses to a simpler structure — and this will include our own. Comparing America with the Western Roman Empire, Prouty notes the over-reach of our military, the unsustainability of capitalism, peak oil, and climate change. And, this time, we may see a global collapse. Transitioning to a simpler society will require us to change behavior and consciousness: decrease energy, get out of debt, decentralize, de-consume, grow our own food, build community, see ourselves as connected to the planet. Collapse is not the end, he says. It’s part of a natural cycle."
(PeakMomentTV)



Who knows? We might start hearing the whispers of Epicurians and Stoicists again in a few decades...